Interview with Tim Ash, SiteTuners' Testing and Conversion Expert
Published July 6, 2009 by Garry Przyklenk Analytics Tools, Books, Landing Pages, New Technology, SES Tour
An introduction? That could be tough, how can I possibly do justice to Tim Ash? If you’ve seen this man talk at a conference or show before, you know the energy and charisma that comes off him is like a lightning bolt to the frontal cortex. There’s a reason he’s usually got a solo act at every Search Engine Strategies show, if not two or three appearances. SES San Jose next month will be no different, and with the news that he’s shared with me in this interview, his session should not be missed.
GP: Hi Tim. I say this a lot, but first and foremost, thank you again for taking the time out of your busy schedule to answer my questions. About a year ago when I read your book, “Landing Page Optimization: The Definitive Guide to Testing and Tuning for Conversion,” I was surprised to notice you didn’t skimp on any specifics. Although much of what you covered holds true, would there be anything you would add today?
TA: This is more than a hypothetical question to me since I am starting work on the 2nd edition of my book (tentatively due out early 2010). I plan to add a new chapter about segmentation and personalization. It is clear that a one-size-fits-all approach can get excellent results, but personalizing the information for more specific groups or even individuals is even more powerful. The first edition was very comprehensive and strategic, but I intentionally stayed away from giving tactical advice about what to test. I plan on adding much more detailed information about the specific kinds of page elements that can be tested. I also plan to add information about the kinds of testing tools that are available and how to choose the right one.
GP: Wow, that’s pretty modest in my opinion, I think you definitely did outfit marketers with several good ideas, but it’s great to hear a new book is on the way – I can’t wait. Only a select few of us were probably doing statistical significance and conversion testing prior to Google Website Optimizer, but now many more have joined the ranks. Do you see any value in running tests and calculating results manually anymore?
TA: At this point, no one should be trying to develop their own in-house landing page optimization and testing tools. There are a number of excellent tools including the free Google Website Optimizer (for which our company, SiteTuners, is proud to be an authorized consultant). The state of the art keeps advancing and there are easier and easier ways to get your pages ready for testing. Second generation testing platforms like our TuningEngine will start to become more common over the next few years.
Our TuningEngine allows a test to be run in a fully automated fashion – you press a button and get your answer. There are no complicated reports, no knowledge of statistics required, and no judgment calls to be made along the way. Once these kinds of tools are in the hands of marketers, the testing can really be accelerated, and the focus shifts from how to run your test, to coming up with more good ideas for tests.
GP: Fantastic. In the end, I’m sure many online marketers would prefer to focus on creative elements and leave development to the coders, and numbers to the analysts. But making testing easier brings me to a possible solution to my next question. Perhaps one of the biggest misconceptions or excuses many “instinctive” marketers make about conversion testing is that it’s too time-consuming, labor-intensive, or cost-prohibitive. What are some of the key selling-points you make that win over even the most skeptical of decision-makers?
TA: There are two key points here:
- Our instincts are often wrong – Even as an experienced conversion marketing professional, I am constantly surprised how many of our ideas go down in flames. No one can be right all of the time. We can’t have perfect empathy with anonymous website visitors whom we do not even know. So it is always better to just ask our visitors what they prefer.
- Even simple changes can make a huge difference – We have run tests where a single headline change on a landing page has produced a 58% conversion improvement. If you use Google Website Optimizer and you want to do a simple split test on your landing page headline, you can have it up in a matter of minutes and collecting data. Now if you tell me that you are simply too busy to do this, I don’t believe it. Improving conversion through testing should be the key focus of any online marketing campaign. It is not optional any more.
GP: Well said, I couldn’t agree more. So when you finally do crack that old-school nut and begin testing, as you said before, outcomes can be surprising. SiteTuners has helped a number of different companies over the years. Do you have any incredible success stories, horror stories, or surprising findings you can share to illustrate the point that intuition is a great starting point for testing?
TA: We have a number of public case studies on our website in which we describe huge increases in conversion for our clients. I would say the key to success is to have truly outside-the-box ideas for what to test. If you stick to safe incremental changes, you may get small increases in conversion, but more radical ideas can either flame out or lead to big increases. So it is important to understand your own (as well as your company’s) risk tolerance. Not every test will produce an improvement, and you need to stick with your program and take risks in order to get the best results.
GP: Emanuel Rosen stated the same a few weeks ago: out of 10 good ideas, 2 might be really good, 5 mediocre and 3 total failures. It’s good to hear that risk can equal reward. But what about rewarding success? Attribution can be a hard nut to crack in many organizations, especially when you tell companies that conversion doesn’t have to necessarily equal dollars. What other conversion goals have you used aside from the standards such as signing up for newsletters, buying something, or simply spending time on a site?
TA: It is a common misconception that a “conversion” is a sale. For many companies (especially in B2B) the ultimate sale may be infrequent and many months away. So you have to measure what is actually happening on the website and use that as a proxy for the ultimate desired conversion action. In other words, you should focus on more-frequent upstream “micro-conversions” such as downloads, form-fills, or simply clickthroughs to other important pages on your site. As long as something is measurable and has value to your company, you should be able to back into its value by working backwards from the value of the desired ultimate conversion.
We have worked with major sites such as Texas Instruments and CBS in order to optimize the efficiency of content sites. There, the “conversion” is typically the weighted value of a click for important pages on the site. So we are trying to increase the click propensity as well as the click value in a way that is meaningful to the company based on their business model and goals.
GP: Judging by some of the posts on the SiteTuners blog, you employ some pretty interesting technology for tests on client sites. What are some of the most exciting tools you’re using today, and how do they perform?
TA: Identifying landing page problems is at the heart of successful conversion improvement. How do you know what to fix if you do not even know what is broken?
There are powerful new tools coming out that make it easy to track what people are doing on your landing page. This is different from most traditional Web analytics tools that mostly focus on inter-page actions.
By contrast, intra-page Web analytics allows you to see individual user actions within a page. For example, did someone scroll, did they hover over a link and not click on it, are people looking at parts of the landing page that I consider important, do they hesitate when filling out a particular field on my form? Examples of this kind of software include CrazyEgg.com, ClickTale.com, and Pagealizer.com. You can try them all free, and even the paid versions are very reasonably priced.
Another powerful tool is our new AttentionWizard.com service (currently in limited Beta testing). It uses artificial intelligence to determine where a visitor will look during the first few seconds on your landing page. All you have to do is upload a screenshot or mockup landing page image, and then you get back an “attention heatmap” based on what your brain will pay attention to. This is an invaluable tool for diagnosing landing page problems, as well as fine-tuning landing page designs. You get instant feedback about fine tuning your design and making sure that the visual focus is on the right elements of your page.
GP: Fascinating. Artificial intelligence for landing page testing, we’ve come a long way.
I want to thank Tim once again for answering my questions, in great detail. If you’re interested in learning more about site testing and tuning and you’re thinking about attending Search Engine Strategies San Jose, sit in on one of Tim’s sessions.
About Search Engine Strategies
Search Engine Strategies is the definitive digital event for marketers, corporate decision makers, webmasters and search engine marketers (SEMs), including pay per click (PPC) advertisers and search engine optimization (SEO) professionals. Attend SES San Jose, network with your peers, meet with industry experts, and learn the tips, tactics and strategies that will grow your business online.
About Tim Ash
Tim Ash is the President & CEO of SiteTuners.com, a firm that offers consulting, full-service flat-fee guaranteed-performance tests, and advanced software tools for landing page optimization. During his 14-year involvement with the Internet, Tim has worked with Verizon Wireless, American Express, American Honda, COMP USA, Sony Music, Universal Studios, TransUnion, Rand McNally, Black & Decker, and Coach to develop successful Internet initiatives. He is a highly-regarded speaker and workshop leader at conferences, including Search Engine Strategies, Affiliate Summit, eMetrics, PPC Summit, and Internet World. Tim is a contributing columnist to several publications, including SearchEngineWatch.com, Website Magazine, DM News, Visibility Magazine, and Electronic Retailer Online Strategies magazine. He received a B.S. and M.S. from UC San Diego during his Ph.D. studies in computer science, specializing in neural networks and artificial intelligence. He is the author of the bestselling book Landing Page Optimization: The Definitive Guide to Testing & Tuning for Conversions (John Wiley & Sons Press, 2008) LandingPageOptimizationBook.com.
Note: This post was sponsored by Search Engine Strategies San Jose. As such, it’s important to note that the opinions expressed in the preceding interview were not those of the organizers, Incisive Interactive Marketing.
Tags: attentionwizard, clicktale, conversion attribution, crazyegg, heatmap, landing page optimization, pagealizer, ses san jose, sitetuners, tim ash, web design
